July 15, 2026
I sat down with the amazing all-around artist, songwriter, poet, actor, and author Steve Kilbey, the lead singer for The Church (known for their song Under the Milky Way, and an old friend) to discuss a burden he’s carried since childhood: math trauma.
Now in his early 70’s, after a lifetime of immense success and accolades, Steve shares how he carries scars that, to this day, continue to haunt him and make him angry, as if Steve has PTSD from math.
Steve was gracious enough to tell me his math trauma story again on camera (we’ve previously discussed them in private), including a feeling that math isn’t creative and how he missed out on his preferred academic path because of a failed math exam.
We discussed how parents pass on their math anxiety to their kids and pondered whether there’s value in him learning algebra today. Finally, I told him how my book, Compassionate Math, is a new take on how to help those who suffer from math trauma.
Watch the interview to the end to see what Steve thinks of the first few pages of the book. The complete transcript of the video is at the bottom of this post.
Here are some highlights of our interview, along with my thoughts.
Jump ahead...
Is math creative?
Steve discusses his experiences learning math and talks about how he doesn’t think math is creative.
On one hand, this doesn’t surprise me. Math is often taught in ways where joy and creativity are limited. Too often, math is taught as a bunch of rules and procedures with no meaning and context.
That’s exactly what kills the beauty and creativity in math. By not seeing the connections between topics, by not being able to explore, we can’t see enough of the big picture to learn to navigate in the world of mathematics.
Math is a subject filled with awe and wonder and a place for your analytical brain to play with the creative side in you. Math is a space for creativity and helps you be more creative.
I took my eye off the ball for one minute and lost math
Math is taught as if there’s only one path to learning it. First, you learn to count, then add, then subtract, then multiply, etc.
But what happens when you’re going down the “math road” and you have an issue understanding or being successful in a topic? You get stuck and you can’t move forward.
Steve and I didn’t get into what happened exactly between arithmetic and when he started algebra, but it seems that once he got on the road to algebra, he had difficulty and couldn’t recover (also we never got into whether or how he got help).
That compounded with having to take double math classes first thing Monday mornings (an exhausting schedule that made him start faking in class), and a teacher who let him get away with it.
Math was already confusing, and he wasn’t getting the help nor being held accountable for him “bullshitting” his way through math.
That unfortunately happens to a lot of students. I’ve seen it too often.
In fact, while collecting data for my dissertation, one student I followed in their computer-centered class had difficulty with one topic. That topic ended up holding him back from completing the course.
What was really unfortunate was that he honestly didn’t really need to be successful in that one topic to finish the course, it was a stand-alone topic! He had good understanding of what he was doing and that topic wasn’t necessary for the other topics ahead (it wasn’t a prerequisite idea).
Unfortunately, the road he was on was a series of toll booths and if he couldn’t pay the toll (by passing the unit test), he couldn’t move on – he was just stuck. He ended up failing the class.
I’m happy to say, this student took the course again and passed. Sadly, this was at the cost of tuition for another class and time lost because his subsequent courses were delayed.
I don’t think this student should have failed the course because he had difficulty with one unit, nor do I think that all of math is so rigidly cumulative that it requires these barriers that hold back students.
Yes, sure, you can’t learn to subtract without knowing how to count. And if you really want to learn multiplication (and not just a bunch of random math facts), you need to understand addition and how the two are related.
But if math is truly a woven tapestry of concepts, do we have to go in the same straight line all the time? Is there only one way to learn math?
Absolutely not. In my book, I take an unconventional path to exploring arithmetic; I start with fractions and how to find equivalent fractions. Why? Because I need that idea if I want to talk about the concepts behind addition.
For me this works since the book is written for someone who has studied math but wants to put what they’ve seen in context; this different path brings a new perspective and clarity.
I’m not the only one who does this. The Dana Center at UT Austin works with institutions to create math pathways, courses of mathematical studies that align better with students’ majors, rather than the algebra-focused courses that direct you towards calculus no matter what you want to study.
There isn’t only one way to learn math, or one path to success, even if that’s the image that’s presented.
The way we’ve focused math learning in school on algebra and calculus validates Steve’s question about what else is there to math besides algebra.
For a student like Steve, who saw that math only has one path, through algebra, it’s not surprising that he was shocked to learn that there are lots of fields of mathematics.
I couldn’t study what I wanted to because of the math requirements
Sigh. How many times have I heard that? Steve wanted to learn how to translate Ancient Greek and couldn’t because his math scores couldn’t get him into the program he wanted to attend.
Math is often used as a gatekeeper, and while there is an argument to be made that colleges should be selective in making sure a student is well-rounded (and because learning math really is needed in more subjects than you may think), there are too many students who are left out and forced to compromise on their potential because of a math requirement.
Too many students choose their major based on math requirements and that shouldn’t be the case. More accurately, too many students avoid or are not permitted to study their topic of choice based on their math requirements and that shouldn’t be the case.
No, I’m not saying that a chemist shouldn’t be required to take and pass algebra. What I am saying is that far too often, math classes are a barrier.
There’s a difference between accountability and exclusivity and in my experience too many decision-makers pretend they’re pushing for accountability when really, they use math requirements and exams as a means of exclusivity.
In this one specific case, I’ll give the world of math education a pass; if Steve had entered this program, we may not have been blessed with his music and art. Also, I may not have met my husband. Curious? Ask me to tell you the story. Yes, Steve Kilbey is the reason I met my husband.
Steve’s experiences aren’t unique. His math scores prevented him from going to college and the same thing happens all over the US (Steve went to school in Australia).
Math grades in a student’s first year of high school have a dramatic impact on their career aspirations. Those who don’t do well in math begin to compromise their dreams.
For those who continue on and want to go to college, math may prevent them from actually enrolling in college or completing any classes; in a large-scale study examining records of over 250,000 students, of those referred to remedial (developmental) math classes, 42 percent never received a college credit within three years.
Once in college, math continues to filter students out. The Association of Public Land Grant Universities shows that between 24-33% of students who take college algebra, precalculus, calculus I, or calculus II receive a D, F, or withdraw from the class. This report further shows that a student with 1 D or F on their transcript reduces their 4-year completion rate by 24.9 percentage points; 2 or more D’s or F’s reduces a student’s completion rate by 47.5 percentage points compared to those with no D’s or F’s on their transcript.
Math is a gatekeeper for far too many.
Now when I look at numbers I get pissed off; Algebra makes me angry
This is truly heartbreaking.
This is a long-term effect of math trauma: pain and resentment that later transforms into anger.
When I first met Steve about 10 years ago, the first thing he said to me when he learned I was a math educator was to tell me about his experiences learning math and how traumatic the experience was. The second was to tell me how cool it is that I’m Egyptian!
Today Steve is over 70, wildly successful, and still gets angry over his experiences learning math in school. This is a direct tie to the shame and dehumanization I’ve spoken about previously.
This is exactly why I added that note to Steve in the video that he should still learn algebra, even if he doesn’t need to. Calming that anger and eliminating that shame can bring peace and quell his resentment.
Besides, algebra is a subject that teaches you to think abstractly, to look for structure, and to meticulously problem solve to reach a solution. So even if algebra isn’t necessary for a wildly successful artist like Steve Kilbey, there’s value to learning algebra.
Maybe that teacher who humiliates him in the book he’s writing won’t be a math teacher (I mean how awful is it that the evil math teacher is such a trope).
For someone still starting out in life, it’s absolutely clear that success in math is tied to success in life.
I want to hammer this point home.
Steve Kilbey can, in his 70s, look back and say he didn’t need algebra and he did ok. That’s great. But his case is clear survivorship bias.
Notice in our interview how Steve chuckled when he asked me about learning algebra and I said he didn’t need it because he’s privileged; that thought is not lost on him.
Steve Kilbey is wildly successful. He has over 1,000 copyrighted songs registered with the Australasian Performing Right Association. He’s performed in front of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of fans.
Steve won life’s lottery. He did ok. He didn’t need math; but that’s not how the story ends for most.
Are there people who are good at both math and writing?
Steve is a poet, a lyricist, and a painter. His world revolves around the written word and his passion for words manifest in his paintings (which are beautiful).
He’s casually quoted Herodotus to me. He’s a voracious reader. And he’s convinced that there’s no such thing as someone who can be creative and mathematical.
Although after reading the beginning of my book, I’m happy to say he’s singing a different tune!
We live in a world where we put things in boxes, and we’ve decided that there’s a “math” box and a “creative” box. But wow how that’s not true.
Salvador Dali was obsessed with mathematics. The mathematician Eugenia Cheng is a pianist who performs regularly. I’m not even going to go with the easy connection in MC Escher or Isaac Asimov.
In fact, in our conversation we touched on the connections between our mathematical and creative minds a bit. The field of linguistics is the scientific study of language.
As I mentioned to Steve, linguistics studies the structure of language and is not unlike algebra studying the structure of arithmetic (another reason for Steve to learn algebra).
Today, we apply these connections practically. AI, particularly LLMs (large language models), parse and output texts based on mathematical models that outline how words are connected. Like I said, a chatbot doesn’t know what a “cat” is, but it knows that the words “cat” and “meow” go together using mathematics.
For computers, these associations are made through mathematical analysis of language, the only context they have.
When Steve is “pulling words out of the air” he’s doing the same thing, although he’s filtering his choice and use of words through his creative mind and experiences in a way that can never be matched by a computer (and you can’t convince me otherwise).
I think that anyone can be both analytical and creative, but we’re taught and given messages that only one can dominate. Both sides of our brain are strengthened through skill building and focus.
If you nourish only one side, you’ll favor that side. But if you nourish both, a bigger world of possibilities open for you even if you favor or excel at one part over another.
My children also have math trauma
Steve has 5 daughters and according to him they all have math trauma.
He thinks it’s because some people are math people and some people aren’t. What’s more likely is his attitude towards math, and sharing that attitude with his daughters, likely shaped how they approached math and learning math.
His daughters probably internalized Steve’s negative feelings toward math and took them on as their own, continuing the cycle of math trauma.
First, this is another reason for someone to reflect on their math trauma and their experiences learning it. Healing your math trauma can break this cycle.
Second, I’m not criticizing Steve’s attitudes contributing to his attitude to his daughters’ feelings about math. There are so many instances in our society where hating math is normalized that it’s not surprising that it feels natural (almost prideful) to share how much you hate math.
Unfortunately, the effects of normalizing anxiety over math are starting to be seen as we do more research.
How my book, Compassionate Math, helps the reader work through their math trauma and strengthen their foundation in arithmetic
My book is written for the adult reader, like Steve, who does not want to continue feeling the anger and shame that comes from their math trauma.
Math trauma occurs when an individual has a previous experience that makes them unable or unwilling to engage with mathematics. And Steve’s story illustrates that math trauma doesn’t go away if it’s not dealt with; in fact, it continues to be carried and haunt the individual.
Learning math is both an emotional and a cognitive endeavor and healing math trauma helps the emotional side so the cognitive side can shine.
Key themes explored in Compassionate Math, the book:
- Work through math trauma: deconstruct the long-term anger, shame, and intergenerational transmission of math trauma. The Compassionate Math Framework outlines how math trauma shows up, including through math anxiety and imposter syndrome. The Cycle of Benign Neglect outlines the sociohistorical factors that contributed to math trauma being intergenerational.
- The connection to society: How success in math and how one feels about math is an issue rooted in equity. This is why some people believe they are not “a math person”.
- Reframe your approach to studying math: Practical tips and strategies to get the most out of math class and better understand math.
- Solidify your foundation with arithmetic: Rebuild your understanding of the subject using a practical and creative lens that teaches you to think mathematically while tapping into your creative side.
- The ultimate goal: Compassionate Math will transform your relationship with math so you can find both emotional and intellectual peace with math.
Geillan Aly & Steve Kilbey: The complete interview
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Geillan: All right.
Steve Kilbey: All right.
Geillan: Steve Kilbey.
Steve Kilbey: Hello.
Geillan: Do you have math trauma?
Steve Kilbey: I do have math trauma. Um, well, this is what I was saying. When I first went to school, I was good—I wouldn’t say I was good at arithmetic. Arithmetic had no horror or problem for me.
Geillan: It was fine. It was…
Steve Kilbey: It was just fine. It was just a—it was just like spelling or reading. It was, I could see how it all worked. I knew, I knew… I was good at even long division, I could hang with that. And it was just another subject. And then when we went into high school, suddenly these concepts started floating around which I couldn’t get my head around, when arithmetic turned into mathematics.
Geillan: Mmm.
Steve Kilbey: And I couldn’t understand—although this is really weird because I am a poet and a lyricist, and I pull things out of the air, and that’s my job. I pull things out of the air. I couldn’t understand how mathematics could be pulled out of the air. That didn’t seem to me like—that seemed to me arithmetic was very—there was no creativity involved.
Geillan: Wow.
Steve Kilbey: It was, it was this: four and five always made nine. There was no—
Geillan: There was no magic.
Steve Kilbey: There was no magic. There was no—there was nothing. Four and five made nine, and there were three threes in nine. And this is how you divide, and I was quite good at—I was quite good at geometry, I could get my head around all of that, and the measuring, averages… All of these things. And then we got into high school, and I took my eye—I must have taken my eye off the ball for a few classes, and suddenly I was knee-deep… They might as well have been talking Egyptian. I—I’m like…
Suddenly it was, “Let —let equal—let equal this, and equal that.” I—I’m writing a book, it’s sort of a semi-kids book, and um, it’s about—and one of the scenes in the book is the math teacher humiliating the hero, who is me.
Geillan: Oh my god.
Steve Kilbey: He pulls him out of the class and says, “Work out this equation.” And I remember that being done, and standing there, and there’s an equation, and I had the chalk. And I had no idea. I had no idea. Um, I gave up. I was traumatized. And then trigonometry was the same. I had no idea—
Geillan: Because it all just builds on each other, right? Once you get hit with—
Steve Kilbey: Well, do trigonometry and algebra go together?
Geillan: Absolutely.
Steve Kilbey: Do they?
Geillan: Absolutely.
Steve Kilbey: I never even knew what—no one ever said, even said, why we’re doing trigonometry. What could be the possible um, sort of, how you would apply this in your life. And—and so algebra and trigonometry, it just um, it, it alienated me and isolated me. And then I started to hate it. And then I started to hate the idea. And then my ultimate trauma was, I wanted to go to university and study Latin and Greek, and I couldn’t get into any university because I failed math.
Geillan: [Gasps] Because you didn’t have the math!
Steve Kilbey: Yeah! And I’m like, what’s math got to do with Greek and Latin? Why? So there was this huge—there was this huge thing in Australia about you couldn’t get anywhere, “You can’t get this job…” If you’re going to be a chemist, if you’re going to be a scientist, yeah, sure. If you’re going to be an economist, yeah, you need math. But why if you’re going to—if you’re going to translate ancient Greek, which I think I was eminently suitable for because my head was there. But, “Yeah, you can’t come to our university because you don’t have math.” So um, I, I really—and nowadays if anything involves even arithmetic or math, or even if I look at numbers, anything at all, it pisses me off. Especially now there’s music programs—
Geillan: Yeah. Auto-Tune is all based on math.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: Yeah, and all your fixers are based on math.
Steve Kilbey: All of it, all of it.
Geillan: Everything is based on math. And your business world, right? Being a successful musician, you need the math.
Steve Kilbey: [Laughs] Well, that, that’s all goes back to arithmetic. Then, then—
Geillan: Then you’re more grounded?
Steve Kilbey: Well, yeah. Yeah, when, when my accountant goes, “Steve, you earned $100,000 and you’re paying 48 cents in a dollar, therefore you’re paying $48,000 tax on this $100,000,” I can go, “Yeah, I can see that.”
Geillan: Yeah.
Steve Kilbey: So my—my arithmetic and I, I’m—I’m good at quickly adding up, I can quickly add up sums in a shop. If someone’s going, “Uh,” I can go, “You know, that’s $4.30, that.”
Geillan: Right.
Steve Kilbey: I’m still—that hasn’t, that hasn’t left me, but it makes me angry. I—sort of algebra, it, it really makes me angry. I, I think one of the worst things in the world, it, it would be if someone said you have to—for some reason you have to go back to school and you have to re-approach algebra and trigonometry. Is there any other esoteric types of math I’m forgetting? Is there—is there more than them?
Geillan: Oh, there’s a lot more. There are whole fields of mathematics, but they are also beautiful.
Steve Kilbey: Huh?
Geillan: They are.
Steve Kilbey: But I hate them.
Geillan: But you hate them.
Steve Kilbey: I hate them. I hate them the way a kid who loves that might hate reading Shakespeare.
Geillan: Right.
Steve Kilbey: And would go, “No, not Shakespeare, it’s archaic and it doesn’t make sense, I don’t know what it means.”
Geillan: Right.
Steve Kilbey: That’s how I feel. And I also feel I don’t understand how there can be people who are good at both. It seems to me that there’s—you either have the mind for words and music and art, or you have a mind for math and calculation and stuff. It seems very hard—
Geillan: But you’ve met me, and—
Steve Kilbey: Yeah. Well, I, I presume—I presume yes, you are across both of those things. I presume you are—you like poetry as much as math?
Geillan: I mean, I love your poetry.
Steve Kilbey: [Laughs] Yeah, so yeah, so, so and I don’t think I’m the only one. Um…
Geillan: Unfortunately, you’re not. So, that’s why I’m writing this book, and I’m putting—putting my work out there.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah. I think it’s too late—I think it’s too late for me, but I think it can avoid—I think it can avoid… And also, here’s—here’s my question.
Geillan: Okay.
Steve Kilbey: Should—should someone like me have to learn math? Why—why the hell was I ever learning math? Why—why was, why when was I put in a double—and the worst thing was at our school, I remember in, in one year, double math first thing Monday morning. Two periods.
Geillan: Oh! Oh my god, on a Monday? That’s like the first—that’s how you start school?
Steve Kilbey: Double period. Double period. Two 40-minute periods of math.
Geillan: That is… oof.
Steve Kilbey: And I started faking, and I started—and the teacher—and the teachers just let me fake it. And I just slipped. I was in the A-class, and I slipped down and down and down. And in those days there was advanced, credit, and ordinary. And I went from advanced to credit to ordinary, and then I completely failed math. And when I did them—them, what was the matriculation, I just sat there, looked at the paper, and like… I don’t even know why I went in. It was like I couldn’t answer one question. And I—but I was outraged as well, thinking, why the hell someone like me with—with this sort of aptitude I have for words, why are you—why are you trying to make me play around with numbers?
So I—so I guess it all started with this idea when—when it seemed like the teacher was pulling numbers out of the air and was—cre-creating, being creative with numbers. I couldn’t—I couldn’t get my head around—I could—you could pull words out of the air all your life, and I’d be like, “Wow, look at that. Yeah, pulling it out.” Look at—look what you’re doing. But when it came to numbers, I sort of—made me feel really bad. And, and all my family are like that, my children are all like that. Um, I got five daughters, I think they’re all bad at math and hate math, and, and don’t want to know.
Geillan: So, do you know what’s interesting? Is that math anxiety and math trauma can be sent—um, uh, passed to our kids. Because if you have a bad attitude about math, then they’re going to absorb those vibes, and then they will develop a bad attitude—
Steve Kilbey: I’ve got to tell you—I’ve got to tell you, my—both of them, the mothers of those children were always telling me that and going, “Leave them alone.” I go, “Yeah, I hate…” The kids come home going, “I hate math.” I go, “Yeah, I hated math. I fucking hate it.” And they, the mothers, would be going, “Shut up! Stop, stop telling them!”
Geillan: Yeah, and then if you do that, then it’s going to—then they’re going to—then they’re going to pick up on it. So that could be—that could be um, uh, a reason. But it doesn’t take away from the story and the pain that you have.
Steve Kilbey: It doesn’t what?
Geillan: It doesn’t take away from your story and your pain that your kids also don’t enjoy math.
Steve Kilbey: Well, I don’t know if it’s—it was—it was painful at school because I be-case I—I was bullshitting.
Geillan: And you still carry it. I mean, we met—we met what, almost 10 years ago, and the first thing you said to me—
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: —was, “I hate math,” and you told me these stories.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: And you still carry it. I—I see it. I see it right now.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I—but I don’t yearn to be good at it.
Geillan: No, for sure. Okay.
Steve Kilbey: And, in fact, if a—if a fairy appeared in this and said, “With one wave of my wand, for no charge whatsoever, I could make you the most brilliant person at algebra and trigonometry and calculus,” I’d go, “I don’t want it.”
Geillan: Oh.
Steve Kilbey: I don’t want—I like my—I like my mathless life.
Geillan: Wait a second, does that mean you’re not ordering my book?
Steve Kilbey: Well, you know what? [Laughs] You know what? I’m very interest—I’m very interested to see how you… I—I look, I think it’s really hard, someone like you who has this um, predilection towards numbers and math and all the—all the esoteric forms of arithmetic and mathematics, it’s very hard for you to understand what it’s like for someone like me. Just like when I give—I was giving a songwriting course, and this kid was going, “I can play, I can see, I can’t write lyrics.” I just, “Write about whatever you like.” “Yeah, but like I can’t…” “That’s all right for you, but I can’t.” I go, “Just write about your girlfriend.” “I don’t have a girlfriend.” “Well, make one up!” “Then my friends will laugh at me.” And everything I—every suggestion I had, he had—he had put this block there going, saying to himself, “I can’t write lyrics.” And he couldn’t get over that, and I think I’ve done that—I did that to myself a long time ago. I’d be interested to have a look at the book and see where I went wrong, and if there was some way—uh, more interest because I know you, and to see how—to, to admire how… I, I’m really interested when people get a new take on an old problem. And like, you know, if somebody writes a book about anxiety and goes, you know, “If you have problem with anxiety, imagine it like this.”
Geillan: Right.
Steve Kilbey: “Or if you don’t like doing yoga, think of it like this.” Or, you know, “If you don’t like Shakespeare, think of it like this.” So if—if you have really found some way into math for the common man—
Geillan: I think it’s a new take. So the first half helps you work through your math trauma, and the second half, you’ll—you’ll enjoy this, takes you through arithmetic.
Steve Kilbey: You’re what?
Geillan: It takes you th-through arithmetic.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah?
Geillan: Yeah. So you’re just going to enjoy the arithmetic that you like yourself, because that’s where a lot of people need that foundation solidified. And then, hopefully, in the next book, we’ll go through algebra.
Steve Kilbey: Um, so the—so this book’s only taking on an—arithmetic?
Geillan: Only taking on arithmetic. Yeah.
Steve Kilbey: Right. Do people don’t seem—do people have ar-arithmetic trauma?
Geillan: So, most people experience trauma throughout their—I mean, I experienced my math trauma in graduate school, right?
Steve Kilbey: Right.
Geillan: But, uh, most people who really want to get into algebra have a very difficult time with their arithmetic.
Steve Kilbey: Who would want to get into algebra?
Geillan: Somebody who wants to be a scientist.
Steve Kilbey: Oh, okay. Okay, okay.
Geillan: Or a doctor, or an architect. Right? Or somebody who needs to pass their exams. Or somebody who wants to learn how to code.
Steve Kilbey: Code. Yeah. Do—do you think there are—there are people who just, it isn’t for them? Like…
Geillan: So—so here’s the thing. Human beings are mathematical beings. We use our logical minds to understand and control our world. We are all human, we are all mathematical. Some people might have more of a desire or a lean one way to another, but that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing there. I think the only reason that you don’t feel in touch with your math self is because you never developed—
Steve Kilbey: Can I ask you a question? Aren’t Arabic people inclined towards math perhaps more than—
Geillan: No!
Steve Kilbey: Yeah, they are. [Laughs] They invented it! They invented zero!
Geillan: Hindus. They—the Arabs got it from the Hindus. But then, when the Arabs held all the mathematics of history because, you know, uh, Europe was in a dark ages, it was held in the Middle East. We built on it with algebra. And we, we brought you algebra, sorry about that. But—
Steve Kilbey: Okay. Okay. So, you, you—
Geillan: It—it’s yes, that—I mean, algebra is an Arabic word.
Steve Kilbey: It is.
Geillan: Yes.
Steve Kilbey: It sounds like it is. And what does it mean?
Geillan: Al-Jabr was the per-was the author who codified, and his—it was his writing that lasted.
Steve Kilbey: Right. Okay. Okay. Do you think there are people that just—this isn’t for?
Geillan: So, there are people—so, I don’t think that.
Steve Kilbey: No?
Geillan: I don’t think that, because it’s human—it’s, it’s a human endeavor. Being mathematical, just wanting to rationally understand our world, is human.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: And so, that’s where the math part comes in. But how it’s applied in school might be a little bit cold, right? May not—may not sit well with people. I think that a lot of your linguistics and—like linguistics is mathematics.
Steve Kilbey: Is it?
Geillan: Yes.
Steve Kilbey: In what way?
Geillan: It’s very mathematical because you’re taking the structure of language and abstracting it to understand the big forms and relationships. Do you know what that is?
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: Algebra. It’s abstracted arithmetic.
Steve Kilbey: I hear this sort of thing, but I don’t believe it.
Geillan: Yeah, that’s fine. That’s fine. We can talk—yeah.
Steve Kilbey: No, I, I just—I just—I just don’t believe algebra has anything to do with language.
Geillan: Oh goodness. I mean, that’s—as, as, as sick as this is, that’s what LLMs do, is that—
Steve Kilbey: Who?
Geillan: Well, AI language models and chatbots.
Steve Kilbey: Oh, they do. Oh, yeah.
Geillan: Right? They’re basically taking all the language that we’ve ever used and put it together mathe-—they use mathematics to do that.
Steve Kilbey: Okay. Okay.
Geillan: And you can get a properly written sentence—
Steve Kilbey: Right.
Geillan: —just by a computer that’s randomly pulling words. A computer doesn’t know what a cat is, but it knows that the word cat and meow go together.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah. Right. Do you think if I—if I learned math—algebra at this stage of the game, it could have any possible application that would improve my life?
–CUT TO GEILLAN SOLO
Geillan: “Okay, so Steve asks me about learning algebra, and if you notice, our eyes kept turning off to the side of the camera. It’s because we keep getting called for soundcheck, and Steve needed to go. So I had to wrap up really quickly, and I knew that the answer I really wanted to give wasn’t—wasn’t going to tie up the interview quickly. So watch, and I’ll get back to you with the answer that I really want to give.”
— CUT TO INTERVIEW
Steve Kilbey:Do you think if I—if I learned math—algebra at this stage of the game, it could have any possible application that would improve my life?
Geillan: I think learning anything improves—
Steve Kilbey: Oh yeah, but not—other than that. Other than staving off my um, ev-inevitable dementia. And it probably would, that would really sharpen your mind up.
Geillan: Okay. Is there a plat-a practical application of algebra for Steve Kilbey? No. You are privileged enough where you don’t need it. You have a life where you don’t necessarily need it. But, is that the case for everybody? No.
–CUT TO GEILLAN SOLO
Geillan: “So what did I really want to say to Steve? I wanted to say: Yes, there’s still value in you learning algebra now, so that you can heal that inner child. So that you can go back and understand that you have value, that algebra makes sense, that it is creative and beautiful, and so that you can settle that part of you that you still carry. And that anger that you’ve held for all of these years can finally, finally be extinguished. Because yeah, Steve Kilbey—super successful, super privileged—doesn’t need algebra. But that anger is still there. And that is what healing your math trauma will do for you.”
–CUT TO INTERVIEW
Steve Kilbey: Right.
Geillan: There’s always a need and there’s always a case, and you could probably—you could probably find a case for it.
Steve Kilbey: It seems pretty esoteric to me. It seems like it’s an esoteric thing that—
Geillan: It is, it’s abstract arithmetic. You’re taking the numbers and you go, “I don’t need to worry if this is a two or a four, I’m kind of curious what happens to the pattern in general.”
Steve Kilbey: Right.
Geillan: Or, “I don’t know what this value is, and I want to try to find ways to figure it out.”
Steve Kilbey: Okay. Yeah.
Geillan: All right.
Steve Kilbey: All right.
Geillan: I got your brain going.
Steve Kilbey: Ah no, I—it’s, it’s—it’s really interesting, and I like to talk about it, but once I sit down with the book and reading I’d be like, “Ah!” And there’s something always saying to me, “Don’t you bother with that.” It’s this thing that—this thing that sort of um, tells me what to do. And when numbers and science and chemistry and that sort of thing comes into my orbit, this thing goes, “No, you don’t—you shouldn’t worry about that, that’s not for you.”
Geillan: So how about we do this? How about you read it? Because it’s a narrative.
Steve Kilbey: Okay.
Geillan: So you could read it and either enjoy my writing or talk trash about my writing.
Steve Kilbey: Have you got one with you?
Geillan: I do, I have samples.
Steve Kilbey: Like an actual book? Because I don’t want to read it off my phone.
Geillan: No, but I could show you, yeah.
Steve Kilbey: Huh?
Geillan: Yeah.
Steve Kilbey: You do have one? A printed out one?
Geillan: Yeah.
Steve Kilbey: Okay.
Geillan: It’s got lots of edits in it, but—
Steve Kilbey: Ah?
Geillan: It’s got lots of edits in it, but you can—you can—you can read a few pages.
Steve Kilbey: All right.
Geillan: Okay.
Steve Kilbey: I’m up for that.
Geillan: Right. And so you can either read it because it’s so engaging, because the writing is that good—
Steve Kilbey: Yeah.
Geillan: —or you could hate-read it and sit there and say, “Oh my god, I can’t believe you’re such a terrible writer,” and keep going.
Steve Kilbey: No. No. Well, I… What, they want me?
Geillan: They’re done. All right, so soundcheck.
Steve Kilbey: Okay, this is where I use my numbers. One, two, three, four! I don’t know what comes after four.
Geillan: It goes back to one.
Steve Kilbey: Oh, right. Okay, good to see you, Elaine.
Geillan: Thank you, Steve. Thank you.
Steve Kilbey: Do you have one for me?
Geillan: Uh no, but I’ll get you one.
Steve Kilbey: Yeah?
Geillan: Yeah, we’ve got a little printer down—
–AFTER SOUNDCHECK… CUT TO STEVE READING
Geillan: Hey Steve, what do you think so far?
Steve: I think you write it really well.
Geillan: Oh, thank you.
Steve: I think your writing is really well and it’s got a—it’s got a really nice angle on it. And the—and the—the other little bits and pieces you’re bringing in, it’s really good. Really good so far.
Geillan: Ah, thank you! [Laughs]
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